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Discovering the Truth Part II I try to define things the way I see them.......My problem is I see them subjectively...I see God subjectively.. I talk subjectively.. So It's hard for people to understand. it hard for people to know what I am defining. I understand what we as human HAVE TO DO......WE HAVE to be objective.. WE have to be able to distinguish things .. Many of things we try to distinguish are just made up shit.. The criteria, only works in the objective world.. Doesn't work in the subjective world. So let's get down to the nitty gritty of what I am saying.. Of what i see everyday... about the shit that we do... to distinguish things.. How objectivity. not only defines things .. but when mistakenly taken apart from the subjective world...destroys subjectivity. WE do it to ourselves.. WE define our differences,... until that objectivity destroys the subjectivity of being human. It is simply.. the cause of every single one of humanity's problems.. |
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My discussion with sparkle about objectivity and subjectivity.. Is worth exploring more... as it defines my communication problem..What appears to be my inability to choose sides My inability to define things singularly. .It makes for a great difficulty in communicating.. Some of you won't have a clue.. about what I talking about.. Most of Us .. do both... being objective and subjective go hand an hand.. the degree of which that is done is evident to me in each of you... Most here can only be objective.. It's not what most of you think.... As someone like Leaf can be subjective...and understand my communication.. Believe me it not about agreement.. my criteria to determine it.. is not about agreement... it's about understanding. We define liberalism and conservatism objectively.. The criteria we use could be different.. lets say defining Liberalism... And it goes the same for those who define conservatism.. no matter what that definition is....... It is objective.. It's okay that we do that.. it's what we have to do...But we need to maintain some sort of subjectivity.. However, subjectively, Liberalism and Conservatism are the SAME THING.. Subjectively any criteria or definition one chooses to apply.... applies to each. In the BIG picture they are virtually inseparable.. Subjectively.... there are NO SIDES.
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So I come to a person ..LIKE TRUMP.....An amazingly overly Objective person.. not because he doesn't understand.. because he does.. all he has is an objective goal and an objective personality.. he is my antithesis. He has no use for subjectivity... Why even bother? What good does it do you to muddle things with morals and principles... discussions about God...Democracy..good and evil.. right and wrong.. Subjectivity is useless.. "You know you got to make up your mind. Say yes to one and leave the other behind.. It's not often easy, and it's not often kind but you know you got to make up your mind." A women is not a person.. she's a women. A black or Hispanic is not a person.. They are a black or an Hispanic.. A country is not an idea .. it's a thing. Having power or money is not right or wrong.. but having power or money.. MAKES you MORE right. Winnings is not about a personal satisfaction.. but about beating your opponent.. The satisfaction come from their knowing they were beaten.. not that you won. Other people are put in this world for Your benefit.. you're not put in this world for their benefit. And finally "The Truth" it's stupid to think the truth is subjective and applies subjectively...When he can make it objective.. What good is it, if the Truth applies to everybody.. so he objectifies the Truth and makes it whatever he wants it to be.
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There is no "subjective world" ...Of course you perceive God subjectively....... It's the only possibility.......If you must use the terms "subjective"and "objective", you will need to define them. .....Your words mean nothing to me in the context of your use of these terms.......it seems to me like you are using them interchangeably.......perhaps you can try and express your ideas without those terms......I have never seen you use them before I introduced the word "subjective" in your previous blog, so why are you now throwing them willy-nilly into every other sentence?
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6/22/2019 12:38 pm |
Truth can be subjective Cricket. Take Trump's tax cut. An objective analysis suggests a given impact can be concluded but the magnitude of that impact cannot be calculated in advance because nobody knows what the recipient will do with the money. If corporations for example raise wages you have one affect but still cant calculate affect not knowing what the workers will do. If companies buy back stock the affect is further uncertain. It may not result in any stimulus at all and worsen an economy with an explosion of new public debt. So to claim the policy was good for America is subjective at best. A person or an entity can not act subjectively and avoid objective result.
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6/22/2019 1:33 pm |
Do not worry about it. Pray & the answer will fall from the sky onto your head. You do not have to think or know anything. It's in the Book Party On!
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Truth can be subjective Cricket. Take Trump's tax cut. An objective analysis suggests a given impact can be concluded but the magnitude of that impact cannot be calculated in advance because nobody knows what the recipient will do with the money. If corporations for example raise wages you have one affect but still cant calculate affect not knowing what the workers will do. If companies buy back stock the affect is further uncertain. It may not result in any stimulus at all and worsen an economy with an explosion of new public debt. So to claim the policy was good for America is subjective at best. A person or an entity can not act subjectively and avoid objective result. Between you and Cricket, my head is spinning.......LOL
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There is no "subjective world" ...Of course you perceive God subjectively....... It's the only possibility.......If you must use the terms "subjective"and "objective", you will need to define them. .....Your words mean nothing to me in the context of your use of these terms.......it seems to me like you are using them interchangeably.......perhaps you can try and express your ideas without those terms......I have never seen you use them before I introduced the word "subjective" in your previous blog, so why are you now throwing them willy-nilly into every other sentence? I understand YOU.. I understand what you're doing. The term are sort of interchangeable.. If you take all the possible objectivity . you have subjectivity.. objectivity is just a part of subjectivity. so let me.....totally confuse you. The subjectivity of objectivity is subjectivity. If you can figure that one out... you'll get my drift. Now, I subjectify God. because I see no other way to define him... If someone defines God as to how He exist or defines him as not existing.. that person is objectifying God.. And is destroying the subjectivity of God. Because for them, no other possible truth about God exists. I see God as many defintions, including the possiblity He does not exist..
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Truth can be subjective Cricket. Take Trump's tax cut. An objective analysis suggests a given impact can be concluded but the magnitude of that impact cannot be calculated in advance because nobody knows what the recipient will do with the money. If corporations for example raise wages you have one affect but still cant calculate affect not knowing what the workers will do. If companies buy back stock the affect is further uncertain. It may not result in any stimulus at all and worsen an economy with an explosion of new public debt. So to claim the policy was good for America is subjective at best. A person or an entity can not act subjectively and avoid objective result.
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Your use of "affect" doesn't make sense....did you mean to say "effect"? Between you and Cricket, my head is spinning.......LOL Leaf doesn't conform to Your objectivity.. so your going to correct him? Maybe if you had an ounce of subjectivity... you wouldn't need to.
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Leaf..... "A person or an entity can not act subjectively and avoid objective result" Okay kind of stated bassackwards.. I get the drift.. but I doubt anyone else does. A Person need to act subjectively and discover the objective results. THAT's how YOU Learn A subjective person narrows his understanding.. and objective person need to expand their understanding....But being objective doesn't allow you to do that. That's why sparkle can't understand , can't learn,..and cant' even try.. she's "stuck up" in her objectivity.. and so is that "other" guy. here..
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Leaf..... "A person or an entity can not act subjectively and avoid objective result" Okay kind of stated bassackwards.. I get the drift.. but I doubt anyone else does. A Person need to act subjectively and discover the objective results. THAT's how YOU Learn A subjective person narrows his understanding.. and objective person need to expand their understanding....But being objective doesn't allow you to do that. That's why sparkle can't understand , can't learn,..and cant' even try.. she's "stuck up" in her objectivity.. and so is that "other" guy. here..
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You are so fricken ballsy... My gosh... Leaf doesn't conform to Your objectivity.. so your going to correct him? Maybe if you had an ounce of subjectivity... you wouldn't need to.
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You are using the terms "subjective" and "objective" in ways that don't conform to the accepted definitions of the words. In order to communicate, the speaker and the listener need common, reciprocal understanding of the meaning of words they use.......Why do you refuse to define your terms? What is your intent? You seem to think that confusion is profound.....
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Daniel Dennet Is one of my favourite speakers.....I have listened to a lot of his lectures over the years.......I listen while doing repetitive hand-work like knitting or sewing........He's a philosopher and cognitive scientist......about 20 years ago he came up with the term "Deepeties" for phrases that seem profound because they are illogical, but are actually shallow nonsense........DEEPETIES......./SIZE]
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What......You think Leaf's comment makes sense? Everything you are saying about me.. is NOT true... but you think it is.. I try to talk to trump supporters about how they think and try to get them to see things different... I fail with them.. and I fail with you You can not understand the way I think.. those are the kinds of thing that make for common bedfellow.. not agreement or ideology. I honesty don't look at person ideology or agreement to assess if they make sense or not.. I don't find that commonality to be distinctive.. There are people on different sides of the fence .. that have much more in common.. than their difference in ideology.. I can see it... YOU CAN'T WE have very similar ideologies.. we agree more than we disagree.. but in reality we have very little in common about how we think.. I say it's NOT about What you think... it's HOW you think.. I have said it a million.times. I don't take pleasure in it.. It doesn't do me any good.. I have learn through my life.. I can challenge what a person thinks and stay friends... but when I challenge How they think.. they can't handle it..
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I wasn't talking about Leaf's ideology, I was talking about grammar...The difference in meaning between the words "effect" and "affect" ..........good grief....... And you are digging in your heels about defining your terms.....why?.....I don't believe you want to communicate......you want to pretend that your thinking is unique and so profound that I can't understand what you say because of some lack on my part.......I'm sure that attitude must have worked well for you in the past.......
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6/23/2019 4:06 am |
Your use of "affect" doesn't make sense....did you mean to say "effect"? Between you and Cricket, my head is spinning.......LOL
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I wasn't talking about Leaf's ideology, I was talking about grammar...The difference in meaning between the words "effect" and "affect" ..........good grief....... And you are digging in your heels about defining your terms.....why?.....I don't believe you want to communicate......you want to pretend that your thinking is unique and so profound that I can't understand what you say because of some lack on my part.......I'm sure that attitude must have worked well for you in the past....... I'm NOT telling you you're wrong.. I am saying there are "other" possibilities.... I believe that you are just one of many possibilities...You can't accept that.. You mind is objective, as you must have me define another singular possibility ..so that you can defend yours. I don't believe in the singular possibility.. Yet, you want to force me into it. So we can argue about something you can understand. You're telling me I am wrong, because you think there are no other possibilities.. You think I am arguing.. but you are creating the argument. I use God as an example.. because it's clear.. but it's about everything.. You say.... God doesn't exist I say..doesn't that depend on how someone defines God..? You say.. What don't you understand? That's not possible ... God doesn't exist..
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I know you can't understand how I think.. but maybe you can understand why i think that way.. It about the commonality of being human... It's about cause and effect...It's about objectivity and subjectivity...... Everybody is basically the same.. but we are subjected to different causes... and those causes result in an effect.. AS leaf said... the results or the effect is objective..and we disagree on What it is...So we argue the objective, and believe people are wrong. . But it's not the way I think.. I think of the cause...not the effect.. the "CAUSE" In regards to how humans express the outward results.. and the results become more common than they are different. For me, the Cause becomes subjective results... and the actually results become objective. It the same for everybody... You, me hank and leaf...we are all the same. Even TRUMP has a cause and effect. AND SUBJECTIVELY, as human beings...... NOBODY CAN BE WRONG.. ...
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I agree with Liberals but they piss me off.. they are hypocritical.. Lets say... to ignore the effective results of a criminal.. and mitigate it by the cause. It a person's circumstances, education, poverty, and upbringing, and being abused.. that turns them into criminal....they should be forgiven..it's not their fault.. I understand that .. I agree with that.. But I take it a heck of lot further than that.. The outwards results of what we see, by everyone..is a cause an effect... no one is immune.. So, in a way, you should forgive everybody....Or SHOULD YOU? Objectively YOU can't...... Subjectively you can.. That is what I call being subjective...And it's no fun.....You just can't DEFINE anything..It's why people avoid it.
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WE as humans.. create a value system, a society, laws, governments, ideologies, and even GOD..... WE do so to define ourselves.. WE create racism, criminality, despots and dictators, tribes, elitism, narcissism, wealth, winning and Lies... WE do it all..... to avoid subjectivity. WE objectify ourselves and we objectify everything around us...We as human, make it NOT a choice, but a necessity. So now you can understand how confused I am...How difficult it is for me.. I accept we have to do it...but it's important to me to understand why..
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This whole thing started with me stating... "I'm home by myself making art.......I know that truth is mostly subjective"........and from that you have created this humongous land fill of assumptions......incroyable!!!!!
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Have you read Nietzsche?.....He might teach you some possibilities of how to express your ideas......Then again, considering that Neitzsche got most of his ideas from Zarathustra, it may be more expedient to go straight to the source......
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Have you read Nietzsche?.....He might teach you some possibilities of how to express your ideas......Then again, considering that Neitzsche got most of his ideas from Zarathustra, it may be more expedient to go straight to the source...... You can only hate others because you objectify them. This doesn't occur in the animal kingdom why? Because other living things do not objectify.. Other living things only understand the subject of thing.. the specific object is recognized but the thought of what it is... is subjective.. It's good or bad. It's safe or unsafe, and there is NO in between Other living creatures react to the subject of the object and not the possible specifics. Some specifics can be learned... but they are exceptions to the rules of an animal's subjectivity.
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"Your mind can not accept possibilities...It's why you do not understand subjectivity.. It's what this whole blog is about.. You want everything neatly packaged.. This whole thread started with me saying that I find truth to be mostly subjective and from that, you have built up this miasma of assumptions about my thinking.........You have no clue what you're talking about........You don't know me at all.........I have spent years of my life as a spiritual seeker.......I lived off-grid, as close to Nature as possible........I grew up in the midst of raw Nature, following bears, watching God's creatures with a heart bursting with gratitude and awe......being still, aligning my spirit with the spirit of wolf, beaver, moose, salmon............fire, water, wind, rain, river, lake, surf......fish. crabs...I chose again and again the company of the wild.........and when I couldn't, I chose the company of young children .........I have spent months and years alone in the wilderness focused on the subjective reality of nature......I have made my lif e choices to facilitate that......When a person deliberately discards all that insulates them from the natural world.......when you spend your days paddling a kyak or sailing a simple wooden boat, feeling every current and breeze, navigating the same reality as the eagle, being joyfully joined by whales, porpoise, sea-lions, seals........when you grow and harvest and preserve your own food......when you make your own clothing, shear the sheep, wash and card and spin and knit....search for dye to beautify............ I chose to spend my time with small children and with damaged adults who needed help to heal......These have been my life goals, experiences and joys..........When I came across a freshly killed deer in the bush.....the blood still wet.......I knew it was a wolf-kill, because I knew wolf from experience....from a life-time of observation.......I followed him and found him sound asleep on a sunny bluff. I called to him, but he only yawned, showing his bright tongue and magnificent flesh-tearing teeth......then he tucked his nose back under his bushy tail and fell back to sleep. He was so full of meat, so satisfied, that he didn't care that I was there too. I gave him a couple of days to digest and then went to his resting place. And as I sat there in the lush moss, looking out to sea......to the islands dotting the deep blue, to the snow-topped mountains of the mainland inlets, my hand came in contact with a hard object in the moss.......It was an 8 inch piece of deer thigh-bone.....hollow and smooth....as white as the wolf's teeth..........and I knew he had left it as a gift for me. I took it home and put it under my pillow. There ensued a reciprocal dream relationship between me and the wolf and the deer which culminated with me polishing, shaping and carving the bone and when it was done......and the dreams had stopped, I asked to be shown the purpose of the hollow bone. You make assumptions about me based on your own biases.......You don't see that religion and scripture and houses of worship objectify God........You assume that not subscribing to the Christian Objective means that my thinking lacks a subjective perspective.........You keep assuming that the ineffable needs to be objectified ........You don't even begin to see that the concept of God is the ultimate objectification of the ineffable........
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